tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post6951237764230394700..comments2023-10-16T21:11:28.700+03:00Comments on Dodecad Ancestry Project: Origin of Kalash inferred with Eurogenes K=10 "test" calculatorDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-2706176498324937492011-11-26T11:05:28.973+02:002011-11-26T11:05:28.973+02:00But probably not Slavic?
Slavic makes its first a...<i>But probably not Slavic?</i><br /><br />Slavic makes its first appearance 3 thousand years after the Andronovo culture. The Slavs are latecomers to both the historical scene and the steppe; prior to their eastward expansion, the steppe was inhabited by Iranic-Altaic speakers.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-74141366356201827582011-11-26T07:31:06.740+02:002011-11-26T07:31:06.740+02:00But probably not Slavic?
The Westerness of the No...But probably not Slavic?<br /><br />The Westerness of the North Eurasian component certainly speaks against the Proto Indo-Europeans being Eastern Europeans doesn't it?<br /><br />ANI being close to West Asian populations makes sense since it is mostly West Asian with some of the Atlantic-baltic and the populations of the Caucasus have this exact mix of components.<br /><br />But in certain runs some of the North Indian participants are like 50% South Asian in addition to their Atlantic-Baltic and West Asian components. So some of this has to be West Eurasian and probably West Eurasian ancestry specific to the region. I was just calling that component ANI but I suppose it would be close to West Asian anyways.<br /><br /><br />But minus the Asi admixture 70% W Asian and 30% Atlantic Baltic seems ike a good fit since the region is probably like 55% W Asian/~20% Atlantic Baltic/25% other(asi, east asian, mediterranian/sw asian).<br /><br />What type of phenotype would be associated with these people then(west asian +atlantic/baltic). This question is probably in the pseudoscience range so don't answer if you don't want to. i am just curious. You have helped enough. Thanks.<br /><br />Regards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-60092643266985788032011-11-26T06:35:17.242+02:002011-11-26T06:35:17.242+02:00There is no such thing as ANI, it is an abstractio...There is no such thing as ANI, it is an abstraction needed to fit a 2-population model to Indian Cline population. That abstraction is indeed much closer to populations from the West Asian area than to populations from Europe.<br /><br />I don't know what language Andronovo spoke; there have been several episodes of language replacement in the steppe already. Their language is probably lost forever.Dodecad Projecthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10447516703222698752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-8476355592609670472011-11-26T06:14:10.537+02:002011-11-26T06:14:10.537+02:00That makes sense. But then what did the Andronovo ...That makes sense. But then what did the Andronovo speakers speak and who are their descendants? Slavs? Was Andronovo Z93 though.<br /><br />And I am guessing ANI(referring to the West Eurasian ancestry specific to South-Central Asia)+West Asian+Atlantic-Baltic is what the original Indo iranians were and ANI is essentially just west asian.<br /><br />So 70% W Asian and around 30% Atlantic Baltic or something close to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-13026764275464952972011-11-26T03:17:57.200+02:002011-11-26T03:17:57.200+02:00I think the Indo-iranian formed in the territory o...<i>I think the Indo-iranian formed in the territory of the BMAC but Andronovo seems to be associated with the Proto Indo-Iranians by many people doesn't it.</i><br /><br />It's not based on anything. There is no evidence for any Indo-Europeans on the steppe before the 1st millennium BC. Even in historical times when Iranic nomads are on the steppe, these represent a small twig of the Indo-Iranian tree (=a branch of Iranian), hardly what we'd expect if the steppe was the Indo-Iranian homeland.<br /><br /><i>Those people had to go somewhere and there seems to have been contact between Andronovo and BMAC tribes.</i><br /><br />They didn't have to go anywhere, because they lived just fine on the steppe along with their goats and other livestock.<br /><br />If we had to wonder about something is what happened to the huge population of the BMAC that could no longer live there due to climate change in the 2nd millennium BC. The exodus of that population is just what we'd expect for the breakup of Indo-Iranian<br /><br /><i>Also what would explain the North Eurasian component in Afghanistan/Pakistan. And why is it mostly Western btw?</i><br /><br />These regions have been settled by Iranic speakers throughout history. All genetic evidence points to the fact that the Caucasoid component in South Asia is primarily of West Asian origin, and the ratio of "West Asia"/"North Europe" components in the region places the origins of that population somewhere between the Northeast Caucasus and the Armenian Plateau in terms of the current inhabitants of West Eurasia.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-80152762201567952252011-11-26T01:55:29.430+02:002011-11-26T01:55:29.430+02:00Thanks for the reply.
I think the Indo-iranian fo...Thanks for the reply.<br /><br />I think the Indo-iranian formed in the territory of the BMAC but Andronovo seems to be associated with the Proto Indo-Iranians by many people doesn't it.<br /><br />So what was Andronovo then?<br /><br />Those people had to go somewhere and there seems to have been contact between Andronovo and BMAC tribes.<br /><br />Also what would explain the North Eurasian component in Afghanistan/Pakistan. And why is it mostly Western btw?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-1551350708473901262011-11-26T00:31:50.440+02:002011-11-26T00:31:50.440+02:001. I don't think Andronovo has anything to do ...1. I don't think Andronovo has anything to do with Proto-Indo-Iranians. Rather, the Proto-Indo-Iranians formed in the territory of the BMAC.<br /><br />2. I see no evidence for the scenario you are describing. The dust needs to settle on the new discoveries within R-M17 to make a complete case, but Z93+ seems to be shared by people in Central Asia, India and Iran, so if any type of R-M17 was present in early Indo-Iranians (which seems likely), Z93+ seems like a good bet.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-3364577063810860472011-11-25T06:27:52.028+02:002011-11-25T06:27:52.028+02:00Do you think the ptoto Indo-iranians (Andronovo pe...Do you think the ptoto Indo-iranians (Andronovo people) were Z283 carriers from Poland/Russia who brought technology(and slavic vocabulary) and imposed their language on z93 carriers in south-central asia. I saw this theory circulating on the web.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-74998403550952856442011-11-08T11:30:30.999+02:002011-11-08T11:30:30.999+02:00In the K=12 v3 French Basques show a bit more West...In the K=12 v3 French Basques show a bit more West Asian than Lithuanians, and some Iberians whose heritage is mostly from the Northeast, lack the component, sometimes even without Southwest Asian too.<br /><br />It's curious that at higher resolution (in comparison with the Eurasia7) we find it increased between Basques.Acidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09528331665202849473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-9309480018778100302011-11-08T10:04:19.372+02:002011-11-08T10:04:19.372+02:00Your euro7 calculator consistently favors the idea...<i>Your euro7 calculator consistently favors the idea that East Europeans spread IE in Europe.</i><br /><br />It does not.<br /><br /><i>The while the basques have less west Asian than thrir surrounding IE speaking neighbors they ALSO have less NEU than their IE speaking neighbors. </i><br /><br />I don't know where you are getting this from, since there is no "NEU" in euro7. If you are referring to the "Northeastern" component, the French_Basque sample has 0.4%, while Spaniards, Spanish_D have 2.2-2.5%, not a particulary significant difference..<br /><br /><i>The finns do in fact have some west Asian and they actually have more west Asian than the nearby IE speaking Lithuanians, which is inconsistent with a west Asian people spreading IE in Europe. On the other hand the Lithuanians do have more NEU than the close-by non IE speaking finns.</i><br /><br />Again, there is no "West Asian" on euro7, so I don't know what you are talking about. In eurasia7 where there is such a component, FIN ha s 1.8%, Finnish_D 1.6%, Russian 8.7%, Swedish_D 5.5%, Lithuanians_D and Lithuanian 5.1-6%.<br /><br /><i>Lastly the Lithuanians have a very small amount of west Asian relative to the whole of Europe, even less than the Spanish, despite the fact that they speak an IE language and are closer to the IE homeland. </i><br /><br />Finns, French_Basque have even less. Lithuania adopted a Neolithic economy very late in the game, and Indo-European speech at least that late. Also, the ancient DNA evidence suggests that populations from the eastern Baltic have the most amount of influence from northern Mesolithic hunters and fishermen of the PWC, who were certainly NOT any type of Indo-European <br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/09/modern-scandinavians-descended-from.html<br /><br /><br /><i>In summary the WA theory explains the WA dip in the basque but it does not explain the WA dip in Lithuania relative to Finland. The WA theory also doesn't explain why the Lithuanians have so little WA. </i><br /><br />Because there is no such dip, but rather a small difference in the opposite direction.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-59132716001339560452011-11-08T03:52:27.597+02:002011-11-08T03:52:27.597+02:00" I don't disregard the "possibility..." I don't disregard the "possibility". Anything is possible. But, there are many factors arguing against that. For example, French_Basque and Finns, the two major non-IE populations of Europe lack the "West Asian" component that their IE-speaking neighbors possess."<br /><br />Your euro7 calculator consistently favors the idea that East Europeans spread IE in Europe.<br /><br />The while the basques have less west Asian than thrir surrounding IE speaking neighbors they ALSO have less NEU than their IE speaking neighbors. <br /><br />The finns do in fact have some west Asian and they actually have more west Asian than the nearby IE speaking Lithuanians, which is inconsistent with a west Asian people spreading IE in Europe. On the other hand the Lithuanians do have more NEU than the close-by non IE speaking finns.<br /><br />Lastly the Lithuanians have a very small amount of west Asian relative to the whole of Europe, even less than the Spanish, despite the fact that they speak an IE language and are closer to the IE homeland. <br /><br />In summary the WA theory explains the WA dip in the basque but it does not explain the WA dip in Lithuania relative to Finland. The WA theory also doesn't explain why the Lithuanians have so little WA. <br /><br />The NEU theory explain the basque in relation to their neighbors, the finns in relation to the Lithuanians, and the Lithuanias in relation to Europe.princenuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-50777816365301347422011-11-07T21:25:23.103+02:002011-11-07T21:25:23.103+02:00Right. It looked a little odd to me as well that t...Right. It looked a little odd to me as well that the West-Asian component was modal in the Kalash. Thanks for the explanation, Dienekes. Again, there's no need to subtly ridicule me by asserting that the component we're debating about here, is somehow my <i>favorite component</i>, as I've always thought that the consistency of the presence of North Euro admixture in South-Asia (Northwest South Asia and upper caste Hindus in general) <i>did</i> in fact point out to the fact that it was a secondary element among the Indo-Iranians, with the elevation of it among the Jatts in particular being partially attributed to the absorption of a Scythian substrate. Anyway, my confidence is all this is rather low until we can somehow date the admixture events, even the components that are revealed upon a more granular analysis of the ANI ancestry of South-Asians.Vasishtahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16475698920004634252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-80504263729191555632011-11-07T20:55:54.359+02:002011-11-07T20:55:54.359+02:00To add to that, Zack's data-set is perhaps the...<i>To add to that, Zack's data-set is perhaps the most extensive from a South-Asian perspective. </i><br /><br />That is irrelevant, since the issue in question is the correct resolution of the West Asian component/ This is correctly resolved in the unsupervised run of the Dodecad Project (Update II), probably because of the much greater number of West Asian samples in the Dodecad Project, which prevent a Kalash-specific component to emerge too soon. By contrast, there is never any West Asian component that emerges in the HAP, and the analysis goes from a "SW Asian" component to a partially resolved Kalash component, and then to a fully resolved Kalash component.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-18430497162573939212011-11-07T20:44:55.552+02:002011-11-07T20:44:55.552+02:00So, what's up with that 10% North Euro score i...<i>So, what's up with that 10% North Euro score in the Kalash?</i><br /><br />It is incorrect, since the "West Asian" component at K=12 is actually a partially resolved Kalash component.<br /><br />The Kalash are at ~60% West Asian ~40% South Asian according to both eurasia7 and 'test'. The partially resolved Kalash component makes them appear to be ~70% "West Asian", i.e., 10% more "West Asian" than they really are in the latitudinal North European/West Asian cline in West Eurasia, and with the addition of 10% "North European" they go to their correct place (60% West Asian)Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-81391016322568178402011-11-07T20:39:24.974+02:002011-11-07T20:39:24.974+02:00The evidence that Brahmins intermarried with forei...The evidence that Brahmins intermarried with foreigners in their genes: they have absorbed a substantial quantity of native South Asian ancestry. It is somewhat ridiculous to think that the Indo-Aryans would intermarry with indigenous South Asians to a huge extent, but would maintain their racial purity vis a vis subsequent waves of Central Asians, especially since those found themselves at the top echelons of society.<br /><br />Moreover, this admixture continued long after the initial arrival of the Indo-Aryans in India, as evidenced by the fact that different Brahmin groups occupy different positions along the Indian cline.<br /><br />I'm sorry that you want to trace your favorite North European component to the time of the Indo-Aryans, but there is really no evidence that that is the case.<br /><br /><i> At K=12, here are the ADMIXTURE proportions for the Kalash - <br />West Asian - 71%<br />South Indian - 14%<br />Northern European - 10%</i><br /><br />The "West Asian" component is mislabeled, as it is most prevalent among the Kalash, with West Asians following at a great distance. It is a Kalash-specific component that is not completely resolved, something which occurs at K=13.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-86707156919212203242011-11-07T17:41:00.179+02:002011-11-07T17:41:00.179+02:00Dienekes said : "I don't doubt it one bit...Dienekes said : "<i>I don't doubt it one bit. We have a very good example: Jewish Cohanim, whose origin also dates to the 2nd millennium BC, and who also guard their status jealously on genetic grounds. Nonetheless, there is an assortment of different lineages that have crept into that gene pool over the millennia.</i>"<br /><br />Instead of providing a parallel, I'd like to see some actual and relevant evidence based on scriptures and other texts that the Brahmins intermarried with foreigners such as the Sakas. There is absolutely mention of this in any of the ancient texts. Intermarriage with <i>mlecchas</i> is most plausible for the other upper castes to an extent - Kshatriyas (politically motivated), Vaishyas (trade) and the non-upper castes such as agriculturalists, but I seriously doubt the North Euro admixture among Brahmins is an artifact of the Sakas instead of the initial Indo-Aryan expansion. Also, the reason I initially cited HAP's K=11 Ref 3 analysis is because it is maximally informative for South-Asian populations. The <i>South-Asian</i> cluster in Harappa K=11 is predominantly West-Eurasian, so it's mostly specific to ANI. The Onge component covers the bulk of ASI while the remainder of the non-West Eurasian part of the South-Asian component covers for the rest. Here's a <a href="http://www.harappadna.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/cline_onge11_sa11_sa12_pca.png" rel="nofollow">PCA plot</a> which compares the South-Asian component at Ref. 3 K=11 (labeled sa11), with the old South Asian component from the <a href="http://www.harappadna.org/2011/02/reference-i-admixture-k-10-12/" rel="nofollow">initial HAP K=12 Ref.I/Ref.II</a> runs (labeled sa12), which is more similar to the <i>South-Asian</i> component seen in Dodecad K=10 and dv3 K=12. As an aside, Zack posted an update today at the HAP blog with a new set of ADMIXTURE runs. See - <a href="http://www.harappadna.org/2011/11/ref3-yunusbayev-caucasus-data-admixture/" rel="nofollow">Ref3 + Yunusbayev Caucasus Data Admixture</a>. He mentions that the lowest crossvalidation errors are for K=17 and K=12. At K=12, here are the ADMIXTURE proportions for the Kalash - <br />West Asian - 71%<br />South Indian - 14%<br />Northern European - 10%<br />SE Asian - 3%<br />NE Asian - 1%<br />American - 1%<br /><br />Okay, so there is both a West-Asian and Southern European centered component here which filter out any spurious clusters that may overestimate admixture scores and peg alleles accurately. To add to that, Zack's data-set is perhaps the most extensive from a South-Asian perspective. So, what's up with that 10% North Euro score in the Kalash?Vasishtahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16475698920004634252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-58763929871983071062011-11-04T06:58:10.966+02:002011-11-04T06:58:10.966+02:00"How the older anthropologists and linguists ..."How the older anthropologists and linguists came to this conclusion is not clear to me. "<br /><br />The British physical anthropologists started with this idea.<br /><br />The same British physical anthropologists stated that Britain is predominantly "Nordid" in physical phenotypes and by this, close to the Indoeuropean invadors, who "subdued" allthe inferior races of Europe...and by this, are the "Master Race". What a surprise. ;)<br /><br />Well, as far as I recall, the claim is, that the skulls of the anchestral Europeans (the natives) are all brachycephalic and broad faced.<br />The bones massive. Giant, muscular brutes.<br /><br />And in the late neolithic, there suddenly apear gracile, tender boned, dolchiocephalic and slim faced people and spread all over the place.<br /><br />Those old maps claim, people of modern day SPain, Portugal, Britain, Ireland, Netherland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, South Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania fit those new comers phenotypes best while France, Soutgermany, Switzerland, Astria, North Italy and north Balkans apear to be closer to the (of course racial inferior *Sarcasm*) native Europeans. So much for the "Old School" view of British style physical anthropology.<br /><br />Strange however, that the mtDNA of the Baltic countries is suposedly closest to native European one. Followed by Scandinavia. 2 places that are, by physical anthropology, most close to the late neolithic arrivers who had been connected to the Indoeuropeans by 1930s science.Fantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-13941326325226885302011-11-03T21:21:01.518+02:002011-11-03T21:21:01.518+02:00In the old days of of physical anthropology and li...In the old days of of physical anthropology and linguistics the idea of a special kinship between Northwest Europeans and the people who brought an Indo-European to South Asia was widely accepted. For example, "the Indo-European languages were, at one time, associated with a single, if composite, racial type, and that racial type was an an ancestral Nordic" (C. S. Coon "The Races of Europe" p.221). How the older anthropologists and linguists came to this conclusion is not clear to me. Coon was aware that the skeletons he identified as Nordic were very similar to Southwest Asian highlanders.Charles Nydorfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16291667302870991631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-83399167157829331102011-11-02T20:22:21.700+02:002011-11-02T20:22:21.700+02:00My default hypothesis based on the available data ...My default hypothesis based on the available data is that the R1 clade has its origins in the vicinity of the Caspian, with R1a showing a distribution on the long arc along the flatlands north and east of the Caspian, and R1b in the complementary "short arc" of the highlands west and south of it. <br /><br />The latter has to be "east enough", otherwise it would have been involved in migrations from Anatolia/Levant during the early Neolithic, but also "west enough" otherwise it would have been present in South Asia.<br /><br />Not to mention the R1b in Africa.<br /><br />It's all a big puzzle.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-9869376992525512882011-11-02T13:21:23.304+02:002011-11-02T13:21:23.304+02:00How does the Z93 branch of R1a1a1 fit in with all ...How does the Z93 branch of R1a1a1 fit in with all of this, Dienekes? It appears to have origins in the Armenian highland vicinity.Bledahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447740241824496560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-77853979078581110032011-11-02T10:14:31.308+02:002011-11-02T10:14:31.308+02:00How do you explain that the South Asian component ...<i>How do you explain that the South Asian component is closer to Atlantic-Baltic than to the Southern component?</i><br /><br />The South Asian and Atlantic-Baltic components are closer to the West Asian one, rather than the Southern one, because, I believe, they have both sprung (partially) from a common source somewhere in the northern parts of West Asia.<br /><br />The Southern component appears to be an earlier offshoot from the Near East, as evidenced by its substantial presence north/south and east of the Mediterranean, and its higher Fst distances to the rest.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-47151244006187820442011-11-01T23:42:02.972+02:002011-11-01T23:42:02.972+02:00@ Dienekes
How do you explain that the South Asia...@ Dienekes <br />How do you explain that the South Asian component is closer to Atlantic-Baltic than to the Southern component?<br />How do explain that the South Asian component also appears far away from South Asia in Northern Africa (1-5%), in the Baltic region (3-4%), and in Yemen (6%)?Palistohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05633640722962576468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-75529115657308619742011-11-01T18:59:45.615+02:002011-11-01T18:59:45.615+02:00I highly doubt that the Hindu priestly castes coul...<i> I highly doubt that the Hindu priestly castes could have acquired any foreign West-Eurasian elements post the initial Indo-Aryan expansion.</i><br /><br />I don't doubt it one bit. We have a very good example: Jewish Cohanim, whose origin also dates to the 2nd millennium BC, and who also guard their status jealously on genetic grounds. Nonetheless, there is an assortment of different lineages that have crept into that gene pool over the millennia.<br /><br /><i>The Jatt participants of both the Dodecad and Harappa Ancestry Project have elevated amounts of Northern European admixture relative to other Punjabi speakers, which might well suggest actual and real Scythian admixture </i><br /><br />Correct, and consistent with my claim that this elements represents Indo-Scythian ancestry to a substantial extent.<br /><br />We know for the fact that Saka-type people entered India and set up kingdoms there. We also know for a fact that they did not keep their old religion but were incorporated into the Hindu fold. More likely than not, they intermarried with local Hindus at all levels of the caste hierarchy.<br /><br />No matter how rigid the caste hierarchy is supposed to have been, it is indubitable that intermarriage across its lines was prevalent in the past; otherwise modern-day caste groups would not span the length of the Indian cline. Some level of admixture with foreigners, especially those in a position of power is all but certain.Dienekeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-6785090444927667582011-11-01T17:31:02.361+02:002011-11-01T17:31:02.361+02:00Continuing from where we left of yesterday, I high...Continuing from where we left of yesterday, I highly doubt that the Hindu priestly castes could have acquired any foreign West-Eurasian elements post the initial Indo-Aryan expansion. This doesn't fit into any known historical context. There is no mention of Brahmins intermarrying with non-South Asian Indo-Iranian groups in any of the ancient texts. <br /><br />I think it is far more likely for the generic denizens and in addition, the ruling class to have absorbed such elements, in Northwest India, the area most of these people entered the subcontinent from. For instance, in the Mahābhārata; Gāndhārī, who is the wife of the Kuru king Dhritarāshtra (the kingdom of the Kurus was mainly situated in present day Delhi, Haryana and Western Uttar Pradesh) was the daughter of the king of Gandhara. Her brother was Shakuni was known as Gandhar-naresh (naresh = king, in this context). <br /><br />The Jatt participants of both the Dodecad and Harappa Ancestry Project have elevated amounts of Northern European admixture relative to other Punjabi speakers, which might well suggest actual and real Scythian admixture (although not their predominant ancestry). DOD089, DOD090, DOD091 and DOD0736 are Jatts from Punjab. DOD0746 and DOD0832 are Jatts from Haryana, in Northwest India. They exhibit the component in question as much as the Pashtun reference samples do, and sometimes even <i>more</i> than the Pathans, which is interesting given their geographical location. This has been mentioned elsewhere, but it is relevant to mention it here - it would indeed make far more sense for a peasant/farmer/baron caste like the Jatts to have been historically more willing to mix with <i>foreigners</i>, who would otherwise be deemed as <i>mlecchas</i> by the Brahmins. Furthermore, many of the names of Jatt clans are reminiscent of ancient Scythian tribe names. <a href="http://www.harappadna.org/2011/10/admixture-ref3-k11-hrp0171-hrp0180/#comment-6809" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is a post/comment on the HAP blog on that.<br /><br />In conclusion, I am rather doubtful of the proposition that any Northern European admixture in South Asia post dates the initial Indo-Aryan expansion.Vasishtahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16475698920004634252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6533996127304587865.post-40784024458526365142011-11-01T09:55:33.769+02:002011-11-01T09:55:33.769+02:00OK, in the end, we're all looking for the same...OK, in the end, we're all looking for the same thing, which is the most accurate picture of the past. So let's ask ourselves honestly how we can do that, so that no one can level any claims of bias against any of us.<br /><br />Dienekes, maybe the best solution here is to try and run the five most outbred/differentiated Kalash in the same analysis, and then see whether their components differ from their supervised results?<br /><br />If they don't differ, then you're right. If they do differ, then something's off, and a solution must be found, because supervised tests are indeed useful if accurate.<br /><br />Am I right or what?Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.com